Comments on: We’re free from the Law! http://www.4-14.org.uk/were-free-from-the-law …Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves… Tue, 07 Feb 2012 04:13:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Jim http://www.4-14.org.uk/were-free-from-the-law/comment-page-2#comment-58008 Jim Sat, 07 Jan 2012 21:18:41 +0000 http://www.4-14.org.uk/index.php/archives/68-were-free-from-the-law#comment-58008 I am all but sure that this debate has existed from the begining of the Christian age. Been studying this question for years. I am a former Seventh Day Adventist and have been caught in this no man's land between the question of Law and Grace. In attempting to decide whether to go back to the SDA (or similar faiths) and finding a mainline "orthodox" church I have found myself stuck in this confusion, which way to go? I have noted that most mainline churches use a blend of grace and law. Pick and choose and they run right over their initial premises by building up a system of doctrines that contradict the first point; We are saved by Grace, through faith in Christ. The Catholics and Protestants both use the 10 commandments as a model, yet, feel that they can overwrite the 4th and insert Sunday as a day of rest, since afterall, they are keeping the "Spirit" of the law. I have read a dozen logic strings to this question of Sabbath vs Sunday . The thinking is all over the map. In general, when you try to establish an axiom or rule of logic in any paticular teaching in scripture, you will find that there are modifiers in other places of scripture that undo or exempt that rule of thought. Thus, everyone starts building a belief system on who ever can make the best sense of it in a presentation and we call that a religion. One side makes a case and leaves out huge modifiers, the other side makes their case and they too leave out the other sides points of view or they reinterpret them to mean other things. Most of what the Apostle Paul wrote was in essense the foundation of what we call Christianity today. Then why the confusion? Because even St. Paul spoke both pointedly and globally when he expressed his teachings about the law. In one place he leads us away from the law, in another , he takes us full circle back to it. Like a yo yo. You can't lock on to either position because it is simply not that black and white. This then begs the question, is it perhaps both positions? Some say absolutely not. They will cite a paticular definitive verse to prove it. Then point counter point ensues and when you are done, you are left so confused , you are not able to convince anyone of anything , much less your own convictions about the law. I have tried to read the NT, esp Galatians and Romans in a wholistic way. Contexually minded. When read that way, I am inclined to believe that we are no longer proceeding from a law basis, but rather a intuitively Spiritual and moral basis in the key of love. Also, we are not checklisting and doing works of the law for the sake of law, eg: Sabbath observance, rather, we are to live relationally towards God and others in simple Love. Jim I am all but sure that this debate has existed from the begining of the Christian age.

Been studying this question for years. I am a former Seventh Day Adventist and have been caught in this no man’s land between the question of Law and Grace.

In attempting to decide whether to go back to the SDA (or similar faiths) and finding a mainline “orthodox” church I have found myself stuck in this confusion, which way to go?

I have noted that most mainline churches use a blend of grace and law. Pick and choose and they run right over their initial premises by building up a system of doctrines that contradict the first point; We are saved by Grace, through faith in Christ.

The Catholics and Protestants both use the 10 commandments as a model, yet, feel that they can overwrite the 4th and insert Sunday as a day of rest, since afterall, they are keeping the “Spirit” of the law. I have read a dozen logic strings to this question of Sabbath vs Sunday . The thinking is all over the map. In general, when you try to establish an axiom or rule of logic in any paticular teaching in scripture, you will find that there are modifiers in other places of scripture that undo or exempt that rule of thought. Thus, everyone starts building a belief system on who ever can make the best sense of it in a presentation and we call that a religion.

One side makes a case and leaves out huge modifiers, the other side makes their case and they too leave out the other sides points of view or they reinterpret them to mean other things.

Most of what the Apostle Paul wrote was in essense the foundation of what we call Christianity today. Then why the confusion? Because even St. Paul spoke both pointedly and globally when he expressed his teachings about the law. In one place he leads us away from the law, in another , he takes us full circle back to it. Like a yo yo. You can’t lock on to either position because it is simply not that black and white. This then begs the question, is it perhaps both positions?
Some say absolutely not. They will cite a paticular definitive verse to prove it.
Then point counter point ensues and when you are done, you are left so confused , you are not able to convince anyone of anything , much less your own convictions about the law.

I have tried to read the NT, esp Galatians and Romans in a wholistic way. Contexually minded.
When read that way, I am inclined to believe that we are no longer proceeding from a law basis, but rather a intuitively Spiritual and moral basis in the key of love. Also, we are not checklisting and doing works of the law for the sake of law, eg: Sabbath observance, rather, we are to live relationally towards God and others in simple Love.

Jim

]]> By: pani http://www.4-14.org.uk/were-free-from-the-law/comment-page-1#comment-56947 pani Wed, 04 Jan 2012 16:32:24 +0000 http://www.4-14.org.uk/index.php/archives/68-were-free-from-the-law#comment-56947 i am learning. need help.plus learning computer slowly. don't quite understand i am learning. need help.plus learning computer slowly. don’t quite understand

]]> By: Johnie http://www.4-14.org.uk/were-free-from-the-law/comment-page-1#comment-51498 Johnie Wed, 21 Dec 2011 00:40:50 +0000 http://www.4-14.org.uk/index.php/archives/68-were-free-from-the-law#comment-51498 To the guy who wrote out a lot. We are free from the Law. As timothy says, the Law is not for the righteous, but for the unrighteous. To say that we need to follow the Law takes absolutely everything away from the cross. The Law is religion. The cross was an end to religion. The Law shows the unrighteous that they are sinners, however, as believers we are deemed righteous NOT BECAUSE WHAT WE DO, but we because of what Christ has done for us. We follow the Spirit. Following the Spirit does not promote sin, everyone thinks that if you say you are free from the law that you are just using that as an excuse to sin...and no that's not what anyone is saying. We are free from the Law. The Law will, and always has, break you down. It will break you down and show you that you're in need of savior. The Law is Holy, but the you are born a sinner. It does not take any acts to become a sinner and it does not take any acts, except grace, to become a saint. Stop Trying and Start Trusting. To the guy who wrote out a lot. We are free from the Law. As timothy says, the Law is not for the righteous, but for the unrighteous. To say that we need to follow the Law takes absolutely everything away from the cross. The Law is religion. The cross was an end to religion. The Law shows the unrighteous that they are sinners, however, as believers we are deemed righteous NOT BECAUSE WHAT WE DO, but we because of what Christ has done for us. We follow the Spirit. Following the Spirit does not promote sin, everyone thinks that if you say you are free from the law that you are just using that as an excuse to sin…and no that’s not what anyone is saying. We are free from the Law. The Law will, and always has, break you down. It will break you down and show you that you’re in need of savior. The Law is Holy, but the you are born a sinner. It does not take any acts to become a sinner and it does not take any acts, except grace, to become a saint. Stop Trying and Start Trusting.

]]> By: Sherry zonker http://www.4-14.org.uk/were-free-from-the-law/comment-page-1#comment-45742 Sherry zonker Thu, 08 Dec 2011 12:25:59 +0000 http://www.4-14.org.uk/index.php/archives/68-were-free-from-the-law#comment-45742 I agree and am hungry for more teachings like this! I agree and am hungry for more teachings like this!

]]> By: Dunnowhat2use http://www.4-14.org.uk/were-free-from-the-law/comment-page-1#comment-32098 Dunnowhat2use Wed, 13 Jul 2011 03:26:44 +0000 http://www.4-14.org.uk/index.php/archives/68-were-free-from-the-law#comment-32098 So you are trying to tell me we are free from something that is 1. The Law blesses (obey) and curses (disobey). (Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14) 2. The Law defines sin. (Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4) 3. The Law is perfect. (Ps 19:7)(Jam 1:25) 4. The Law is liberty. (Ps 119:45)(Jam 1:25, 2:12) 5. The Law is the way. (Ex 18:20)(Deut 10:12)(Josh 22:5)(1 King 2:3)(Ps 119:1)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:3)(Mal 2:8)(Mark 12:14)(Ac24:14) 6. The Law is the truth. (Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32) 7. The Law is life.(Job 33:30)(Ps 36:9)(Prov 6:23)(Rev 22:14) 8. The Law is light.(Job 24:13)(Job 29:3)(Ps 36:9)(Ps 43:2-4)(Ps 119:105)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:5) (Is 8:20)(Is 51:4)(2 Cor 6:14)(1John 1:7) 9. The Law is Jesus, the Word made flesh.(PERFECT-LIBERTY-WAY-TRUTH-LIFE-LIGHT). (Ps 27:1)(Jo 1:1-14)(Jo 14:5-11)(1 Jo 1:7) 10. The Law is also for the Gentiles (foreigner/alien) who are grafted in. (Ex 12:19) (Ex 12:38) (Ex 12:49) (Lev 19:34) (Lev 24:22) (Num 9:14) (Num 15:15-16) (Num 15:29) (ie:Ruth) (Is 42:6) (Is 60:3) (Mat 5:14) (Eph 2:10-13) (Ac 13:47) (Ro 11:16-27) (Jer31:31-34) (Ez 37) (1 Jo2:10) (1 Jo 1:7) 11. The Law is God’s instructions on how to love God, how to love others, and how to not love yourself. (Ex 20:6)(Deut 5:10)(Deut 7:10)(Deut 11:13)(Deut 11:22)(Deut 30:16)(Deut 6:5)(Lev 19:18)(Neh1:5)(Dan 9:4)(Mat 22:35-37)(Matthew 10:39)(Mat 16:25)(Jo 14:15)(Jo 14:21)(Ro 13:9)(1 Jo 5:2-3)(2 Jo1:6) Remember: ALL (not some) scripture is given by inspiration of God. ALL (not some) scripture is profitable for doctrine. ALL (not some) scripture is for rebuking and correction ALL (not some) scripture is for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,for correction, forinstruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. And... John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not Thus the Word can not change unless God changes. Pro 28:9 "He who turns away his ear from hearing the Law, Even his prayer is an abomination." We can not say that Paul taught against God’s law either, unless we are comfortable making the "error of the lawless" in interpreting Paul's letters (2 Peter 3:14-17) I'm thinking you should read those verses in context. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him." 22 Y'hudah (not the one from K'riot) said to him, "What has happened, Lord, that you are about to reveal yourself to us and not to the world?" 23 Yeshua answered him, "If someone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Someone who doesn't love me doesn't keep my words -- and the word you are hearing is not my own but that of the Father who sent me. John 14:21-24 I think I will choose to study in context and continue to try and follow God's "perfect" commandments. So you are trying to tell me we are free from something that is

1.
The Law blesses (obey) and curses (disobey).
(Deut 11:26-27)(Ps 112:1)(Ps 119:1-2)(Ps 128:1)(Prov 8:32)(Is 56:2)(Mat 5:6)(Mat 5:10)(Luke11:28)(Jam 1:25)(1 Pe 3:14)(Rev 22:14)

2.
The Law defines sin.
(Jer 44:23)(Ez 18:21)(Dan 9:11)(Ro 3:20)(Ro 7:7)(1 Jo 3:4)

3.
The Law is perfect.
(Ps 19:7)(Jam 1:25)

4.
The Law is liberty.
(Ps 119:45)(Jam 1:25, 2:12)

5.
The Law is the way.
(Ex 18:20)(Deut 10:12)(Josh 22:5)(1 King 2:3)(Ps 119:1)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:3)(Mal 2:8)(Mark 12:14)(Ac24:14)

6.
The Law is the truth.
(Ps 119:142)(Mal 2:6)(Ro 2:20)(Gal 5:7)(Ps 43:2-4)(Jo 8:31-32)

7.
The Law is life.(Job 33:30)(Ps 36:9)(Prov 6:23)(Rev 22:14)
8.
The Law is light.(Job 24:13)(Job 29:3)(Ps 36:9)(Ps 43:2-4)(Ps 119:105)(Prov 6:23)(Is 2:5) (Is 8:20)(Is 51:4)(2 Cor 6:14)(1John 1:7)
9.
The Law is Jesus, the Word made flesh.(PERFECT-LIBERTY-WAY-TRUTH-LIFE-LIGHT).
(Ps 27:1)(Jo 1:1-14)(Jo 14:5-11)(1 Jo 1:7)

10.
The Law is also for the Gentiles (foreigner/alien) who are grafted in.
(Ex 12:19) (Ex 12:38) (Ex 12:49) (Lev 19:34) (Lev 24:22) (Num 9:14) (Num 15:15-16) (Num 15:29) (ie:Ruth) (Is 42:6) (Is 60:3) (Mat 5:14) (Eph 2:10-13) (Ac 13:47) (Ro 11:16-27) (Jer31:31-34) (Ez 37) (1 Jo2:10) (1 Jo 1:7)

11.
The Law is God’s instructions on how to love God, how to love others, and how to not love yourself.
(Ex 20:6)(Deut 5:10)(Deut 7:10)(Deut 11:13)(Deut 11:22)(Deut 30:16)(Deut 6:5)(Lev 19:18)(Neh1:5)(Dan 9:4)(Mat 22:35-37)(Matthew 10:39)(Mat 16:25)(Jo 14:15)(Jo 14:21)(Ro 13:9)(1 Jo 5:2-3)(2 Jo1:6)

Remember:

ALL
(not some) scripture is given by inspiration of God.
ALL
(not some) scripture is profitable for doctrine.
ALL
(not some) scripture is for rebuking and correction
ALL
(not some) scripture is for INSTRUCTION IN RIGHTEOUSNESS
2Ti 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,for correction, forinstruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. And…
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God
Mal 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not Thus the Word can not change unless God changes.
Pro 28:9
“He who turns away his ear from hearing the Law, Even his prayer is an abomination.” We can not say that Paul taught against God’s law either, unless we are comfortable making the “error of the lawless” in interpreting Paul’s letters (2 Peter 3:14-17)

I’m thinking you should read those verses in context.

Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me, and the one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him.” 22 Y’hudah (not the one from K’riot) said to him, “What has happened, Lord, that you are about to reveal yourself to us and not to the world?” 23 Yeshua answered him, “If someone loves me, he will keep my word; and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 Someone who doesn’t love me doesn’t keep my words — and the word you are hearing is not my own but that of the Father who sent me.
John 14:21-24

I think I will choose to study in context and continue to try and follow God’s “perfect” commandments.

]]> By: Yahchanan http://www.4-14.org.uk/were-free-from-the-law/comment-page-1#comment-29010 Yahchanan Thu, 20 Jan 2011 00:27:04 +0000 http://www.4-14.org.uk/index.php/archives/68-were-free-from-the-law#comment-29010 After reading Isaiah 65 I have a hard time nullifying the word of the father. I believe we're free from the penalty of sin (Romans 3:24) but we will be judged by the law (Romans 2:12). Yahshua said " Do not think I came to abolish the law or the prophets but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everthing is accomplished." Matthew 5:17-18 He did fulfill prophecy and the portion of the law that spoke of him but the law has to finish being completed. Again look at the rich man Mark 10:17-21 The rich man said "Good teacher. What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Yahshua replied " Why do you call me good? No one is good except YHWH alone. YOU KNOW THE COMMANDMENTS,........" The man replied "Teacher. All these I have kept since I was a boy" Yahshua looked at him and LOVED HIM! Yahshua said " One thing you lack. Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you'll have treasure in heaven. Then come follow me." So why did Yahshua love him? It was because the man kept YHWH's commands but to be perfect to also follow him. Another thing to think about is 2 Peter 3:15 where Peter is warning against men who distort Pauls teachings to be lawless. Now I'm not a highly educated man and I don't want to teach you things to lead anyone astray so judge for yourself. Paul even said "I'm not free from YHWH's law but under Christ's law". I have alot more on this and if anyone is willing to teach me something "from scripture" or wish to talk about scripture,please email at jchaste@yahoo.com After reading Isaiah 65 I have a hard time nullifying the word of the father. I believe we’re free from the penalty of sin (Romans 3:24) but we will be judged by the law (Romans 2:12). Yahshua said ” Do not think I came to abolish the law or the prophets but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everthing is accomplished.” Matthew 5:17-18 He did fulfill prophecy and the portion of the law that spoke of him but the law has to finish being completed.
Again look at the rich man Mark 10:17-21 The rich man said “Good teacher. What must I do to inherit eternal life?” Yahshua replied ” Why do you call me good? No one is good except YHWH alone. YOU KNOW THE COMMANDMENTS,……..” The man replied “Teacher. All these I have kept since I was a boy” Yahshua looked at him and LOVED HIM! Yahshua said ” One thing you lack. Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you’ll have treasure in heaven. Then come follow me.” So why did Yahshua love him? It was because the man kept YHWH’s commands but to be perfect to also follow him. Another thing to think about is 2 Peter 3:15 where Peter is warning against men who distort Pauls teachings to be lawless. Now I’m not a highly educated man and I don’t want to teach you things to lead anyone astray so judge for yourself. Paul even said “I’m not free from YHWH’s law but under Christ’s law”. I have alot more on this and if anyone is willing to teach me something “from scripture” or wish to talk about scripture,please email at jchaste@yahoo.com

]]> By: Mark http://www.4-14.org.uk/were-free-from-the-law/comment-page-1#comment-2804 Mark Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:42:42 +0000 http://www.4-14.org.uk/index.php/archives/68-were-free-from-the-law#comment-2804 Debra, I'm a "non-charismatic" in that I don't you can separate out some of God's gifts to us and call the "spiritual gifts" as if other gifts of God are not spiritual. I do believe that God give gifts directly to his church (Ephesians 4:11-13), and to individuals that they might support the church (1 Corinthians 12-14). But I don't believe spiritual gifts are more important than (for example) spiritual fruit (see Ephesians 5), and spiritual character (1 Corinthians 13). I also think that most charismatics have mis-understood many of the spiritual gifts, particularly the gift of tongues. I prefer to describe myself not as a charismatic, nor as a cessationist, but as a continuationist. Spiritual gifts are still given today, but they are not the most important thing. I know many charismatics would agree with that, so I'm not trying to pick a fight! Debra,

I’m a “non-charismatic” in that I don’t you can separate out some of God’s gifts to us and call the “spiritual gifts” as if other gifts of God are not spiritual. I do believe that God give gifts directly to his church (Ephesians 4:11-13), and to individuals that they might support the church (1 Corinthians 12-14). But I don’t believe spiritual gifts are more important than (for example) spiritual fruit (see Ephesians 5), and spiritual character (1 Corinthians 13).

I also think that most charismatics have mis-understood many of the spiritual gifts, particularly the gift of tongues. I prefer to describe myself not as a charismatic, nor as a cessationist, but as a continuationist. Spiritual gifts are still given today, but they are not the most important thing. I know many charismatics would agree with that, so I’m not trying to pick a fight!

]]> By: Debra Davis http://www.4-14.org.uk/were-free-from-the-law/comment-page-1#comment-2789 Debra Davis Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:34:37 +0000 http://www.4-14.org.uk/index.php/archives/68-were-free-from-the-law#comment-2789 Thank you so much for your "That's My King" video. My church used a version of it. I have one question for now. In viewing your "hats," why are you non-charismatic? Thanks for answering- Debra Davis Thank you so much for your “That’s My King” video. My church used a version of it.

I have one question for now. In viewing your “hats,” why are you non-charismatic?

Thanks for answering-

Debra Davis

]]> By: Mark http://www.4-14.org.uk/were-free-from-the-law/comment-page-1#comment-2713 Mark Mon, 08 Jan 2007 15:31:05 +0000 http://www.4-14.org.uk/index.php/archives/68-were-free-from-the-law#comment-2713 Garth, thanks for your comments. This is not the place to get into a debate on the relative merits of the Textus Receptus vs an eclectic text. Suffice it to say that the bible (even the eclectic texts) teach clearly that (if I may be allowed to paraphrase you), "once we are saved, we have the freedom to do whatever <b>Christ</b> wants". That's what being free from the law of sin and death actually means. I'm not sure the TR insertion into Romans 8:1 is that helpful. Once saved, always saved, therefore there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, regardless of how they are walking. Of course, verse 2 makes it clear that those who are in Christ Jesus will be walking in his way. Those who are not walking in his way are demonstrating that they are not free from the law of sin and death, that they are therefore not in Christ Jesus, and that therefore they are still under condemnation. Garth, thanks for your comments. This is not the place to get into a debate on the relative merits of the Textus Receptus vs an eclectic text. Suffice it to say that the bible (even the eclectic texts) teach clearly that (if I may be allowed to paraphrase you), “once we are saved, we have the freedom to do whatever Christ wants”. That’s what being free from the law of sin and death actually means.

I’m not sure the TR insertion into Romans 8:1 is that helpful. Once saved, always saved, therefore there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, regardless of how they are walking. Of course, verse 2 makes it clear that those who are in Christ Jesus will be walking in his way. Those who are not walking in his way are demonstrating that they are not free from the law of sin and death, that they are therefore not in Christ Jesus, and that therefore they are still under condemnation.

]]> By: Garth http://www.4-14.org.uk/were-free-from-the-law/comment-page-1#comment-2709 Garth Mon, 08 Jan 2007 09:40:37 +0000 http://www.4-14.org.uk/index.php/archives/68-were-free-from-the-law#comment-2709 Romans 8:1-2 (KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. True, we are free in Christ, but the new (per)versions of the Bible omit the last part of Romans 8:1 (who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.). This has made many Christians think that once they are saved, that they have cart blanche to do whatever they want. All I can say is be very careful. Read a version of the bible that is based on the Texus Receptus and Masoric texts. There is a lot to read on this topic online. I would suggest prayerful searching for God's true Word. This (http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts.html) is a good place to start. Garth Romans 8:1-2 (KJV) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.

True, we are free in Christ, but the new (per)versions of the Bible omit the last part of Romans 8:1 (who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.). This has made many Christians think that once they are saved, that they have cart blanche to do whatever they want. All I can say is be very careful. Read a version of the bible that is based on the Texus Receptus and Masoric texts. There is a lot to read on this topic online. I would suggest prayerful searching for God’s true Word. This (http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts.html) is a good place to start.

Garth

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