Comments on: Response to “To be continued?” #2 http://www.4-14.org.uk/response-to-to-be-continued-2 …Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves… Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:11:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: Mark http://www.4-14.org.uk/response-to-to-be-continued-2#comment-37 Mark Sun, 15 Jan 2006 14:54:16 +0000 http://www.4-14.org.uk/index.php/archives/47-response-to-to-be-continued-2#comment-37 Mark, thanks for your quick comments. Let me try and respond. <ol> <li>1 Corinthians 5:9 does tells us that Paul witnessed the risen Christ <i>later</i> than the others. But Paul uses the word 'last', which also confirms that He hadn't appeared to anyone else since. Could Jesus Christ have appeared to others since Paul? If so, then those people could claim to be apostles - apostles were primarily witnesses of the resurrection, of course (Acts 1:22). If not, then there can be no apostles today - because there cannot be witnesses of the resurrection today.</li> <li>When we speak of foundational, we speak of foundational to the Church (large C), not to local churches (small c). New churches are still being established, but The Church has already been established. The three texts given all refer to The Church. Note the past tense of Ephesians 2:20 (<b>built</b> on the foundation), and note from Revelation 21:14 that there was no expectation to be more than 12 foundation stones.</li> <li>Were there only 12 apostles? Clearly the NT seems to suggested that. But remember the twelve tribes of Israel. There were twelve, weren't there? Actually, no. Ephraim and Menasseh bring the total to 13 - unless Levi doesn't count. The point is that the NT (and OT) are quite happy to speak of the twelve, even though we're not always entirely sure exactly who the twelve are. But that's very different from saying there could be 1200. (So personally I don't think Matthias was one of the twelve, but I could be wrong.)</li> <li>I think I kind of agree with you here. I don’t see a neccessary connection between the closed canon and the closed apostolate either - because not just apostles wrote scripture. Yet I would say that the reason the canon is closed is the same as the reason the apostolate is closed - ie the foundation is now built. We do not need more revelation, we await the return of Christ.</li> <li>We've got to be a bit careful with Barnabas by the same logic as we include him in the apostles in Acts 14:4 we have to exclude him in Acts 4:36 and 9:27 (though Acts 14:14 is clearer). But as Waldron accepts, small-a apostles did have a ministry in Acts (and could today). In that we (and Waldron) agree. The question that you (and I) have to ask is the difference between modern small-a apostles and NT large-A apostles? The <b>key</b> difference is this - they <i>had to</i> use the word 'apostle' as 'apostle' was a normal word in the local language - meaning 'sent one' or 'representative'. So for consistency and clarity, we should use normal words in our local language for those who have that commission today.</li> </ol> Thanks for your comments. I look forward to receiving more in the future! Mark, thanks for your quick comments. Let me try and respond.

  1. 1 Corinthians 5:9 does tells us that Paul witnessed the risen Christ later than the others. But Paul uses the word ‘last’, which also confirms that He hadn’t appeared to anyone else since. Could Jesus Christ have appeared to others since Paul? If so, then those people could claim to be apostles - apostles were primarily witnesses of the resurrection, of course (Acts 1:22). If not, then there can be no apostles today - because there cannot be witnesses of the resurrection today.
  2. When we speak of foundational, we speak of foundational to the Church (large C), not to local churches (small c). New churches are still being established, but The Church has already been established. The three texts given all refer to The Church. Note the past tense of Ephesians 2:20 (built on the foundation), and note from Revelation 21:14 that there was no expectation to be more than 12 foundation stones.
  3. Were there only 12 apostles? Clearly the NT seems to suggested that. But remember the twelve tribes of Israel. There were twelve, weren’t there? Actually, no. Ephraim and Menasseh bring the total to 13 - unless Levi doesn’t count. The point is that the NT (and OT) are quite happy to speak of the twelve, even though we’re not always entirely sure exactly who the twelve are. But that’s very different from saying there could be 1200. (So personally I don’t think Matthias was one of the twelve, but I could be wrong.)
  4. I think I kind of agree with you here. I don’t see a neccessary connection between the closed canon and the closed apostolate either - because not just apostles wrote scripture. Yet I would say that the reason the canon is closed is the same as the reason the apostolate is closed - ie the foundation is now built. We do not need more revelation, we await the return of Christ.
  5. We’ve got to be a bit careful with Barnabas by the same logic as we include him in the apostles in Acts 14:4 we have to exclude him in Acts 4:36 and 9:27 (though Acts 14:14 is clearer). But as Waldron accepts, small-a apostles did have a ministry in Acts (and could today). In that we (and Waldron) agree. The question that you (and I) have to ask is the difference between modern small-a apostles and NT large-A apostles? The key difference is this - they had to use the word ‘apostle’ as ‘apostle’ was a normal word in the local language - meaning ’sent one’ or ‘representative’. So for consistency and clarity, we should use normal words in our local language for those who have that commission today.

Thanks for your comments. I look forward to receiving more in the future!

]]> By: Mark Heath http://www.4-14.org.uk/response-to-to-be-continued-2#comment-36 Mark Heath Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:11:14 +0000 http://www.4-14.org.uk/index.php/archives/47-response-to-to-be-continued-2#comment-36 A few thoughts: First, I don't see how 1 Corinthians 15:5-9 teaches that Paul was the last apostle. It simply says he witnessed the risen Christ later than the others. Second, if apostles have a "foundational" role, why should that imply they are no longer needed? Church planting is still going on, and existing churches need to be built up. Third, I am unclear as to who cessationists such as Waldron consider to be the "twelve apostles of the Lamb"? Is Paul one of them (Rev 21:14)? What about Matthias (Acts 1:26)? Fourth, I don't see why the apostles are so strongly linked to the writing of Scripture by cessationists. Most of the 12 apostles did not write any Scripture, and there are at least 6 books of our New Testament written by non-apostles. Thus I don't see a neccessary connection between the closed canon and the closed apstolate. For the record, I do agree that there were aspects of the ministry of the "12" that are unrepeatable. However, even in the New Testament, other people could be called apostle (Acts 14:4 - Barnabas) without threatening the uniqueness of the 12. A few thoughts:
First, I don’t see how 1 Corinthians 15:5-9 teaches that Paul was the last apostle. It simply says he witnessed the risen Christ later than the others.
Second, if apostles have a “foundational” role, why should that imply they are no longer needed? Church planting is still going on, and existing churches need to be built up.
Third, I am unclear as to who cessationists such as Waldron consider to be the “twelve apostles of the Lamb”? Is Paul one of them (Rev 21:14)? What about Matthias (Acts 1:26)?
Fourth, I don’t see why the apostles are so strongly linked to the writing of Scripture by cessationists. Most of the 12 apostles did not write any Scripture, and there are at least 6 books of our New Testament written by non-apostles. Thus I don’t see a neccessary connection between the closed canon and the closed apstolate.

For the record, I do agree that there were aspects of the ministry of the “12″ that are unrepeatable. However, even in the New Testament, other people could be called apostle (Acts 14:4 - Barnabas) without threatening the uniqueness of the 12.

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